★★★★ 145 real customer reviews average rating: 3.9 stars
1 Stars By Shado on 2017-12-14
Excellent, diverse controller that can replace several others, but mine has a fatal flaw!
- Customer support would not issue me a replacement and instead told me to ask 2DayDeliver to send a replacement. Not sure if it's a common issue but read below to see what I'm talking about.
- The left analog stick gets stuck in the up position sometimes and has to be pulled back into position... Not good! Currently cannot be used to play. Contacted customer support and am waiting to hear back from them
I have been using this on my SNES classic (with the 8bit do receiver), my Super Famicom console (also with an adapter), and my Switch flawlessly.
-little to no button press delay (I only played with 2 controllers connected on switch and saw no input lag)
-easy to pair to switch and 8bitdo receivers (switch: press start and wait for it to come up on the switch controller pairing screen. Retro receivers: press start then hold the pair button on the controller, then press the pair button on the reciever)
-versatile: can be used on many consoles and can act as another controller to existing systems. No longer need to keep buying wireless controllers for each gaming setup
-sturdy design and feel, this thing will last!
-feels REMARKABLY good in hand. I thought it would feel awkward with the joysticks but it feels incredibly natural.
-no hand cramps (so far)
- good for people who like to hold controllers more loosely
- NOTE: I only used my controller after the day 1 firmware update, and the vibration was not loud for me at all, in fact I thought it was too soft feeling and very quiet. The official switch pro controller is twice as loud IMO
-does not wake Switch from sleep by pressing home button
-annoying to pair to 8bitdo retro recievers.: Every time you have to go and press the pair button on the reciever and the controller. With that much work it may be simpler and equally as annoying to just use a wired controller with an extension cable for some people.
4 Stars By Mijo on 2017-12-11
Good alternative to Pro Controller for Nintendo Switch
Received this item today and immediately updated the firmware for this device that can be found on the 8Bitdo website, which I highly recommend doing. I purchased this mainly as an extra controller for my Nintendo Switch, as well as using it on PC and Android occasionally. Controllers have a nice build quality. Has the same finish and feel as the old SNES/SF controllers, with the added sticks, zL/zR buttons, and the home/screenshot buttons. Light, but sturdy. I first connected this to my Windows 10 machine in X-input mode (Start+X, over bluetooth) and mapped it to an SNES emulator. It worked as well as I'd expected using the d-pad for movement. Definitely has the nostalgia factor for those who played Super Nintendo/Super Famicom back in the day. Afterwards, I loaded up NieR: Automata and it recognized the SF30 Pro with no additional setup. The thumbsticks work well enough, though they are close together. The triggers are not analog, so usability in games that require it could be an issue. I also tested on a Nvidia Shield TV. Pairing to bluetooth (Start+B) was easy and it connected with no issue. Mapped it to SNES9X and Mupen64, and it worked great for both as well!
Lastly, I connected this to my Nintendo Switch, which after the firmware update is toggled by simply holding down the Start(+) button. The bottom edge of the controller between the thumbsticks has the familiar 4 LED light indicator, and will blink while in pairing mode. After going into the controllers setting on my Switch and having it scan for new controllers, it was easily able to recognize the SF30 Pro as a Pro Controller. I played Super Mario Odyssey for about 90 minutes using the SF30 Pro. I can definitely say that it is an excellent alternative for those who aren't interested in buying the Pro Controller. The controls were responsive, movement with the thumbsticks was fluid, and the motion controls worked adequately. Tested the controller from 25 feet away. Didn't get any lag, and the connection was solid. The controller is comfortable enough to use during long sessions. And I didn't experience any fatigue despite having larger hands. My biggest complaint with this controller is the rumble feature. The motors in the controller are loud, and makes a rattling sound whenever the rumble feature is active. Not a deal-breaker necessarily, but if you are playing this in a quiet room, it is definitely noticeable. With headphones, or playing on a home theater setup, it won't be a bother.
Overall, great product for anyone looking for a solid portable controller with compatibility on a range of devices (Windows, MacOS, Android, Switch, Raspberry Pi). Good build quality, responsive controls, and great range. Definitely recommend to Nintendo Switch owners if you are wanting a nearly full-featured alternative to the Pro Controller sans NFC for Amiibo. If you are just looking for a controller for the SNES classic (separate wireless adapter required) or any number of emulator setups, you might want to save a bit of money and go with the SNES30 or SF30 non pro.
Compatible with Switch
Good build quality
Included USB-C cable in box
Classic SNES/SF controller feel
Not compatible with iOS
No NFC support for Amiibos
Trigger buttons are not analog
4 Stars By Skagerberg on 2017-12-11
A+ Quality Controller, Will Require a Firmware Update.
The controller works as intended and for all purposes, it will do what you require. The Massive drawback and this is quite apparently when playing games with the Rumble Feature. The Rumble Feature has a consistent loud rattling noise during every Rumble. I'm certain this is not by design and will be fixed.
Playing a Game like Mario Odyssey, the Rumble Feature is on 90% of the time.
First edit: After the firmware update, the rattling is gone, there is now only a low but static filled hum during every rumble which is still quite apparent to everyone in the room. The quote from customer service states is the suggestion to turn off the rumble until they figure out what the issue is.
Second edit: Firmware Update 2.0 fixes the Rumble Feature and it is now on par with the official Gamepad sold by Nintendo themselves. The only feature missing/problematic is the Amiibo scanning.
5 Stars By Zane Ross on 2017-12-26
Great controller for Retro Games on the Raspberry Pi or Nintendo Switch
This is a great retro-style controller to go with your Raspberry Pi powered gaming system. The controllers construction and materials feel great, and the size is a tad larger than the older N30 Pro, and in my opinion fits better in the hands of an adult than the N30 did. The D-Pad is not the best out there, but acceptable for gaming. The thumb joysticks work well, and are very responsive. Overall, I haven't experienced any input lag once I had everything connected and paired with my RPi.
I have updated mine to Firmware v1.22, and wanted to pass along a bit of information. One of my controllers updated fine. The other hand an error during the Firmware flash, and basically bricked the controller. 8Bitdo's customer support got back to me within 24 hours with recovery instructions. If you find yours bricked from a bad firmware update, follow these steps:
1) Press START for 8 seconds to reset the controller.
2) Hold down L1+R1 while simultaneously plugging in the USB that is connected to your PC
3) Orange LED should start blinking, Update the Firmware again.
Both my controllers are now working great with my RetroPi and also work with the Nintendo Switch.
1 Stars By f12321 on 2018-01-03
Helps if it would function, at all.
Absolute garbage product unfortunately. This is the second time I've given 8bitdo a chance (having tried their SFC30) and it failed miserably yet again. I also suspect that the unit I received was a returned unit, as the plastic film covering the buttons was filthy and loose in packaging. Cannot get to pair, before or after the successful firmware update. Controller refuses to power off, reset, or function as described in manual. Most of its LED don't operate to indicate it is functioning or attempting pairing, and the one green LED on the far right, bottom of controller, that does bother to turn on, is so dim that it's a complete pain to even see. Force shutdown with start button, just re-enables the controller once the button is depressed... nonsense!
Afraid I will not give this company any more of my time or money, I'm so over the novelty of this product... While a bluetooth controller with a claimed 16hr battery life and familiar control scheme would be wonderful, this is NOT IT. Much rather just stick to my DS4s and continue charging in rotations, than to put up with this headache again.
5 Stars By Clever Name Goes Here on 2018-01-04
Great pad, has some software quirks (here is how I fixed my issue)
This is an awesome controller, probably my favorite overall ever honestly as I really like the SFC/SNES form factor.
However, I am actually writing a review more for the purpose of helping people fix the issue I had with wireless use within Steam and Steam games. When plugged in via USB-C it worked fine, but no matter what I did (restarts, updating the controller firmware, "forgetting" and re-pairing it as a bluetooth device), it would not work wirelessly with Steam. Windows would list it as correctly operating, and it worked fine with other programs, but not Steam. Finally, I figured it out, at least in my case. I found that if I paired it as an Xinput device (power the controller with START+X then Bluetooth pair), Steam was unable to see it. However, when I powered the controller in "Switch mode" (power on with START+Y) and paired it as a Switch Pro controller, then Steam would see it (as a generic gamepad, which is fine). This was a very aggravating issue, as Xinput is the expected/recommended input mode for Windows. Anyway, maybe I just have some odd driver conflict on my machine since I used to use an xbox 360 wireless adapter before this, but this was the issue I had and how I fixed it. Note how Windows will actually see this as two different controllers if you pair it in each mode, one as a 360 controller, and the other as a Switch Pro pad. I made sure to delete the 360 pairing just to be on the safe side, though I am not sure if that matters.
UPDATE: I just saw a mention that this does not work wirelessly with Windows 7, according to 8bitdo. That is an unfortunate aspect, however, I am running Windows 7/Steam along with an Asus Bluetooth 4.0 adapter and as I said, if you pair it as a Switch controller, it works great with Steam and the other applications I have tried it with.
5 Stars By Robert on 2017-12-15
Update the firmware and you will have a great controller!!
This is my first 8Bitdo controller, I have avoided them in the past due to the higher prices but this one took the cake for me! $50 for a controller that is pretty well universal with everything I have and the fact that I am getting pretty heavy into RetroPie justified the cost.
EDIT: I am changing my review from 4 stars to 5 due my ignorance on the firmware needing to be updated....I finally got my switch last night and upon trying to pair up with this controller it was having some really weird glitches, no vibration and it would think the controller was an amiibo. I decided to see if any firmware updates were available and sure enough there are lol
So now it is paired and working well with my switch, vibration functions perfectly (no annoying squeal either) and I also discovered that this controller does have an om/off function that I hadn't realized previously.
Still works a treat with my retropie too, my PC will be next to give it a whirl on, Great job on this one 8bitdo!
5 Stars By Nazosan on 1969-12-31
Probably won't work for nostalgia, but is very versatile and capable. Overall a pleasure to use.
So after using this for a while I'm going to make a new review entirely. My old review is below, but I'm tempted just to delete it since I'm starting over and that review was after only a couple of days of use. First and foremost I want to say this: you really shouldn't be buying this just for some sort of nostalgia thing. It does not look or feel like a real SNES/SFC gamepad. If you want that you won't really find one for the Switch right now, but there are options for PCs and the like and of course you can always connect a real SNES/SFC gamepad via an adapter. This has two sets of shoulder buttons, two analog sticks, it has two extra buttons (the star and home buttons,) the d-pad and buttons are shifted (to make more room for the analog sticks) and the general size and shape (especially the back) is different. There is absolutely no way you will look at this and feel like it is the real SNES/SFC gamepad and I just don't think you'll get nostalgic from using it. Now, that said, there's some serious advantage in this sort of design for several things. For one, some of us find the SNES/SFC controller's style to actually be rather nice -- especially for 2D platformers and the like. For games like those it can actually be a very comfortable design. And, despite what many controller designers and software developers seem to think, not all hands are exactly the same. So variety is always a good thing. People who miss the Duke from the Xbox 1 days (not to be confused with the poorly named Xbox One) will probably not like this. People who actually felt like the real SNES/SFC gamepads were comfortable probably will. So I think you should ask yourself what reason you're buying this and if it's for the design's comfort for certain things I say go for it, but if it's for nostalgia I think you may not be happy with anything short of a true clone controller (or of course the real thing in an adapter) though this may or may not even ever be available for the Switch. There's a bit of fun factor just in that design, but I just don't honestly believe anyone is going to look down at this very modern gamepad with analog sticks and all and actually feel nostalgia.
So first of all, for the big question on a gamepad with a retro style design: how good is the d-pad? The good news is it's pretty decent. It's not as good as my iBuffalo's d-pad, but overall it has a pretty good feel. Certainly I like it better than most of the d-pads on most modern gamepads (many of which have that soft 8-way design that makes it nearly impossible to get any sort of accuracy or quick movements.) The movements are fairly stiff but not actually hard so it responds fairly accurately to presses and springs back up once you release pretty quickly so handles multiple quick movements well. I've tested it some in some fighters on my Switch (it has a few NeoGeo ports I've rather missed) and while I've lost a lot of my touch from years and years of, well, just not playing them at all frankly (I don't like any of the latest stuff and when NeoRageX stopped working I sort of gave up,) overall I don't feel like the d-pad is limiting me. Unfortunately I'm so out of practice that I can't review fighters well (which is too bad since they are the best tester of accuracy and all.) Well, you really want a fighting stick for that anyway. For 2D platformers and other games like that I've found the d-pad to be excellent and I haven't ever really felt like it failed me in any way. In fact, while I said the iBuffalo has the better d-pad overall it's by such a thin margin I'd say it doesn't really even matter. The way the d-pad and buttons are a bit offset to make more room for the analog sticks seems like it would make them more uncomfortable, but during actual gaming I feel no difference. Not only do my fingers not get more tired or sore or anything from using this d-pad or the buttons, but honestly I just don't even notice the different positions somehow and it just comes naturally to use it as if it was the same as always. Your mileage may vary, but I do think it wouldn't be terribly uncomfortable for most people at the very least.
Here's the question you might not even ask for this one: how good are the non-retro parts of it? Well, oddly enough, they're actually quite good and comfortable to use normally. You'd think the analog sticks seem sort of crammed in as an afterthought to a controller shape never originally designed for them, but they work. And while originally I thought the shoulder buttons would be a problem, they aren't. In fact, I originally thought it would feel more natural if L2 was L1 and R2 was R1, but, in fact, the slim L1 and R1 buttons are actually exceptionally comfortable to use. Well, 8Bitdo knew what they were doing there because I noticed their design has a bit of a separation in the casing between the buttons so they are properly separated and you don't bump the wrong one. Overall the shoulder buttons are comfortable to use except I still have troubles (as I do with a real SNES/SFC gamepad and the iBuffalo) with games like Mario Kart 8 where I use a shoulder button extremely excessively (eg the drifting) as my hand starts to get uncomfortable (I think I don't have proper traction and have to grip it a bit more.) For pretty much everything else -- including games like Axiom Verge where shoulder buttons will still end up being used quite a bit -- I find them to be perfectly comfortable. The fact of the matter is, I just leave the JoyCon controllers connected to the Switch all the time now and basically exclusively use this for absolutely everything. I guess there's a bit of a con in that its home button won't wake the system, but that is not its fault (it's how the Switch actually implements its connections. I don't know if any third party gamepad can, but it would likely require some serious money changing hands to Nintendo to convince them to do so.)
As for the analog sticks, like I said, they just work. You'd think they would be uncomfortable, but I've played Zelda BotW and Xenoblade 2 among other things with this gamepad fully expecting to have to just switch it out after a while and instead I find it's actually really comfortable. Xenoblade 2 in particular really has me swinging that camera around all over the place trying to see. Also, I'm delighted to say that the analog sticks are better for accuracy than the original JoyCon ones in my experience. I've tried using a bow and magic in Skyrim and while it will forever be at least 50x more difficult without a mouse to aim properly, at least I can do a lot better than with the JoyCon analog sticks. (Well, if I recall correctly there's also the motion detection with the JoyCons, but it just doesn't work that well perhaps largely because of how I sit when I use my Switch. I suppose I haven't tested that with this gamepad and honestly can't really test it well anyway.) In fact, while I actually am one of the few who really like the Switch JoyCons in their little adapter, I actually find this to be more comfortable for everything except Mario Kart 8 and stick to it for everything but that now. The analog sticks are comfortable to use even for many hours at a time. Also, 8Bitdo really outdid themselves in the material on them. Most gamepad analog sticks are kind of slippery and I usually modify them in one or two different ways to make them have better grip. This one had the best material I've yet seen right out of the box though. It's very tacky to begin with and really sticks, but they also gave it very tiny little dots and a slight inversion at the top that makes it really grip beautifully. Never once have either of the analog sticks slipped from my finger in even the longest gaming sessions. My hands don't get terribly sweaty, but I've still had troubles with many gamepads over time that makes me end up modifying them to correct that slippage, but this I don't think I'll ever have to even do a thing with.
There's one other rather serious pro: this thing is seriously versatile. Besides the Switch, of course you know it can connect to a PC. It actually supports both DirectInput for things that use more standard input methods where you'll generally have more control over what your gamepad actually does and Xinput for modern retro games that ordinarily would require an exceptionally non-retro gamepad with an awful d-pad (not naming any names, just, uh, Xinput... Yeah...) Why so many of those elect to use Xinput I guess I will never know, but this one can be turned on in Xinput mode and Windows just sees it as an Xbox 360 gamepad with no problems at all. (Perhaps this would work on an actual 360 even? I have no clue and don't have one to test on.) Some games may let you configure controls for a non-360 gamepad but not for a 360 gamepad (yeah, that's dumb, but some devs seem to think what they find comfortable is what everyone should use,) so it's really nice to be able to switch back and forth in such cases. Luckily that's mostly rare. It also has a MacOS(X presumably) mode for Apple users which I can't really say anything about. Besides wired connections, it uses standard BlueTooth for wireless connectivity. That can connect to a PC or a bunch of other devices including, of course, Android (I haven't tested this. I do not game on my phone other than just a bit of Paper Knights a few times a year, but it has reached the point that gamepad usage on Android is relatively standardized and I expect it to pretty fully work as well as any gamepad really can.) I found that it also connects to the Raspberry Pi 3 just fine and played a fair bit of SNES, PCE, and Genesis (Megadrive) emulation (and just a little bit of PS1 emulation but not much yet) using it with zero problems. Even a bit of NES (yes, I know, blasphemy, but I have always use a SNES/SFC style gamepad for NES games as it's just 1000x more comfortable than the NES gamepad and the Famicom one has no nostalgia value for me since I had a NES.) It just paired up and worked without needing any special drivers or anything (I believe I had it on DirectInput mode if that even means anything in BlueTooth mode.) This is why I call it versatile because it can work across a huge variety of different devices whereas normally a gamepad like this would be designed to only work on one or two at a time, forcing you to buy several different versions of the exact same product with virtually no differences in hardware or firmware. It was really amazing of 8Bitdo to actually do something more beneficial to the customer than necessarily to their wallets in this respect. Kudos.
As for cons there aren't many. You may need to upgrade the firmware via a program that uses a physical USB connection (type-C only, but it has very low requirements and a cheap type-C cable that barely works on anything at all works for this as did a micro-USB to type-C adapter I had and did not expect to work.) Probably you should go ahead and do this (as long as you aren't going to trip on the cord or anything) as it's unlikely even a current purchase would ship with the latest firmware and the turn-on issue is annoying. (It had an issue where very frequently you would try to turn it on and it would immediately shut off. It seems the latest firmware fixes this.) Another con is, unless the firmware update has fixed it, it would ignore the Switch's system vibration setting. (Which may not be its fault. That may be something Nintendo's software was designed to only work with the JoyCons originally.) I can't test it after the update because I physically removed the vibration motors (I can't say how much I hate those things in any gamepad! I wish no one had ever come up with them!) This will probably be fixed someday by one side or the other and maybe even already is, so I won't knock off a star for this, but this is something you need to bear in mind if you find it to be as obnoxious as I do. I should warn that, while most games don't get too obnoxious with the vibration, some, like Xenoblade 2, should be hit with a class action lawsuit for making it downright horrible to the player and not having a setting to at least tone it down some. (This was the one that made me decide to pull this gamepad apart and take out those vibration motors...) I think it would be nice if 8Bitdo would maybe make some function to control the vibration. (In fact, if they are going that far, instead of just on or off, how about different levels of vibration even? A lower setting might make games like Xenoblade 2 less obnoxious for those who do like having vibration on.) A complete override of software settings could be potentially beneficial. Perhaps something like holding select (minus) and one of the other buttons for a couple of seconds.
BTW, most gamepads use huge heavy motors for vibration. Another benefit of pulling them out besides having no more vibrating in games is the weight reduction making the controllers more comfortable. However, this uses fairly tiny motors the likes of which might be in many mobile phones. The point being that at least in this case they don't add much weight. The heaviest part of its makeup is definitely the battery (and even that is only a 480mAh battery.) Overall it's pretty light and comfortable to use for hours at a time -- unlike many which can get uncomfortable after a while if nothing else due to the sheer weight of batteries and motors.
Old review below:
The first thing I noticed is the d-pad and buttons are NOT in the same position as a real SFC/SNES gamepad. I suppose this is out of sheer necessity. The real SFC/SNES gamepad of course does not have two analog sticks. This does mean the design is slightly less optimal than a real SFC/SNES gamepad though -- slightly less comfortable. That said, it's still turning out to be overall more comfortable than I expected. Lately I've had problems with my wrist (a sprain or something) and interestingly enough this doesn't seem to hurt as much as I expected and less so than many other things right now. So I guess it's not that bad. The real SFC/SNES gamepad also only has two shoulder buttons whereas this must have four to match the Switch specifications (and those of the other things it's designed to support.) I find the top two buttons to be not as ideal as they should be though. The bottom two are actually much more comfortable to use than the real buttons on a SFC/SNES gamepad, but the top two are very thin at the top and much more awkward to actually press in comparison. I honestly wish they had opted for doing it the other way around with the top two being the big comfortable ones and the bottom two being thin (or even making it backwards with the current physical design but the bottom two being mapped to normal L/R and the top two being ZL/ZR. It would require a short while to get used to but would work just fine.)
For the most part that is only about half of a star off because it's not that big of a deal. The other half -- and I swear I'm tempted to make it more and dock it down to three -- is it ignores the system controller setting for vibration. I have it set to off in the system and yet it still does it. And lo and behold my latest game acquisition -- Xenoblade 2 -- abuses the living daylights out of the vibrate motor (this has to be awful for battery life if nothing else!) For now I'm just burning my bridges and removing the actual vibrate motors from mine (I've always considered this to be less of a feature and more of a massive unfixed bug in modern game controller design anyway -- the force feedback these use is awful and adds zero value, just an annoying shaking and motor noise) even though they are smaller (and consequently lighter so with less mass impact) than the huge motors in most controllers. Most people won't want to do this though, so hopefully they add an update or something to fix this later.
5 Stars By Bill Reed on 2017-12-14
Exactly the modern, retro styled controller I wanted
Really nice little controller. The presentation is right on, it looks beautifully nostalgic and feels hardly any heavier than a standard SNES pad, even with a pair of analog sticks and more electronics packed inside. The d-pad functions just as it ought to, I have no trouble hitting diagonals. Face buttons are more resistant to pressing as well, but to no disadvantage. With an 8Bitdo retro receiver plugged into my SNES this thing is like a dream come true. Platforming in Super Mario RPG feels just like I'm using a plain old wired controller.
Aside from the obvious lack of NFC and HD rumble, the SF30 Pro functions well as a stand-in for the Switch Pro Controller. Motion control is just as smooth and responsive as expected, I had a wonderful time playing Mario Odyssey and the new Breath of the Wild DLC with this. Also put it through a few rounds of Mario Kart 8, and I'm satisfied with the results. The analog sticks are much nicer than the NES30 Pro's, and those weren't bad at all. The slim form factor does make the two pairs of shoulder buttons a little awkwardly placed, but I grew accustomed to them fairly quickly.
I knew after trying the NES30 Pro that I'd have to get one of these, and I'm glad I did. I wish 8bitdo would make a Playstation retro receiver now, this would be a perfect match for it. The guys at 8bitdo are absolutely killing it with these classic Bluetooth controllers.
Update: Since firmware version 1.22, pairing with my PC in XInput mode is much more reliable. Inconsistent pairing was the only real failing of this controller, it could work instantly or it could take up to several minutes, but this appears to be fixed now.
5 Stars By Amanda Jackson on 2018-01-09
LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS!
Of course I love this controller for the nostalgia factor! I also have the 8BitDo N30 (NES style controller) and enjoy that, but this one is far better. It feels reminiscent of the SNES controller. After I found this controller I anxiously waited for months for it to be available, and it lived up to my hype! I can't wait for classic games to come on Switch Virtual Console (or whatever it will be)!
- Perfect and simple connectivity to the Switch.
- Comfortable to hold in adult hands.
- Comfortable button placement.
- Good sticks, don't get in the way of buttons. Feel comfortable and natural to use, and not like a compact controller with tiny sticks.
- Ok motion control, though probably not as good as Joy Cons or Pro Controller. I've only used shaking and not precise movements, and it has worked as expected.
- Long battery life
- Uses the new USB-C standard, and includes a cord.
- Only flaw, but not bad enough to knock off a star... The vibration feels like an N64 Tremor Pak. Remember that 3rd party Rumble Pak with the ridiculously strong vibrations? In 1998 you could be envied by your friends for it, but controller vibration technology has come a long way in 20 years. There's no way that I've found to change the intensity or turn it off except in some game menus, but then I have to change it back manually for different controllers. Again, I still give this controller 5 stars, but wish this point would've been better.
If you're looking for a quality secondary controller or a nostalgia piece good for regular use, this is the best you can get. But if you're looking for a top notch gaming controller for a more PlayStation/XBOX feel, the actual Nintendo Pro Controller is fantastic.